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Old 30-11-2018, 01:26   #1
fraatti
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N57 dieseleiden sisuskaluista

Sattui tälläinen saksankielinen juttu silmiin... Laitetaan se tähän google translatella käännettynä jos joitain sattuu kiinnostamaan. Käännös riittänee siihen että ymmärtää mistä on kyse. Alkuperäinen linkki alapuolella. Pointti on siis että vahvimmassa koneessa on myös vahvimmat sisukset vaikka saattaakin olla että varaosanumero on kaikissa sama...

Juttu käsittelee mm diesel pannujen sisuskaluja ja niiden materiaaleja.

Quote:
I've been working for BMW in the development of diesel engines for around 20 years now. The aggregates of the series M47 / M57 and their successor N47 / M57 belong a little to my "children", for which alone three patents run in my name.

In the past, you could afford to develop your own engine, almost your own engine range, for almost every car. That's not possible today. Today, one relies on so-called equal parts - only in this way can modern engines still be produced reasonably cheaply. BMW builds only six-cylinder with three liters of displacement - to conclude, so that all the engine would be the same, just because they have the same capacity is very narrow and unfortunately the usual tuner thinking.

In 1993, the development of a modern, direct-injection diesel engine began. But you do not build more engines, but only a so-called master cylinder. This has for all common rail diesel at BMW 84mm bore and 90mm stroke. Four of these cylinders make the two-liter diesel, six of them the three-liter and eight of them - who would have thought it - the V8, which once was in the 7 Series.

Today, there are three versions for each of these cylinders in the diesel engine: UL, OL and TOP.
-UL stands for lower power / torque requirements, the pistons are made of a simple aluminum alloy, for example, the crankshaft is simply forged and sintered connecting rods are used. Thus one can cover achievements up to 25kw or 75Nm per cylinder and this variant is used eg x16d, x18d and x25d (except F10 from 2011)
-OL stands for upper power / torque requirements, the cylinder tracks are repeatedly honored, there are forged connecting rods and the Bearings of the connecting rods and crankshaft are sputter bearings. This can be requirements up to 35kw per cylinder or 100Nm represented and used this base cylinder in the x20d, x30d.
-TOP is for high performance requirements with a specially post-treated crankshaft and laser machined cylinder liners. Thus, an increase in the rated speed and an increase in the injection pressure is possible. These base cylinders will be used in the x23d, 525d from 2011 as well as in the x35d and x40d models.
The motors are identical in mechanical dimensions, but not in terms of the materials used:

UL models: (25d-6cyl), 18d, etc.) Mahle type 124 series, pistons with 0.6% CU, magnetic injectors,
OL models : (20d, 30d) Mahle type series 148, pistons with 1.2% CU, piezo injectors, rail pressure up to 1800 bar, connecting rods and crankshafts made of other material
TOP models (23d, 35d, 50d) Mahle type series 174, various other modifications

Example Piston:
The pistons of the OL have a higher copper and a higher chromium content. The higher copper content ensures better heat conduction out of the combustion chamber into the piston bottom cooling. Chrome makes the piston more stable at the higher combustion pressures of OL engines.

The price of the pistons differs considerably, so you save every penny.
The two main additives in pistons are copper (improves heat transfer) and chrome (improves strength at high pressures and temperatures). The stupid thing is that chromium, copper and aluminum have such different melting points and densities that these three substances can not simply be poured without segregating.

- The 124er-piston is cheaper because it can be produced as the only one still in the die casting process, since the copper content is less than 1%. That's not possible with the other two. The advantage of
die casting is that there is no lost shape - the 148 flask is made by centrifugal casting. The production time is longer, the follow-up elaborate.
- The piston type 174 has 2% copper and 6% chromium - this is nothing more with liquid alloys. This is a wrought alloy and the piston itself is forged. This makes the piston expensive - with spare parts, the purchase price but rather secondary, because there, the storage costs over time, the problem.

Since the pistons are mechanically identical, the piston of the OL or TOP can serve as a spare part for the UL. Saves storage costs and spare parts, the price is rather secondary anyway. When it comes to manufacturing costs but it makes a lot, if you do it not only with the piston.

It is correct that the 25d is throttled via the control unit, but you also have to because the components in the version used for the performance and especially the higher torque are not designed. Almost all supercharged diesel engines can do more thermally than they mechanically tolerate - chip tuning is based exactly on it.

Now the tuners come with their chips because they think after comparing part numbers in the after-sales program (freely available at BMW) that all engines would be the same. This is also true for the repair case, in order to minimize the storage costs. The equipment ex factory looks different. Means that you can indeed use pistons for a 535d also in a 316d - it does fit, is just a bit oversized from the material composition and strength, but does not matter and is so provided for repair. This common parts policy is intentional because only one piston pattern needs to be retained as a spare part for all diesel engines.

To get a feel for the dimension of cost savings when subdividing parts in the factory: if a piston "148" for the upper performance requirements in purchasing costs 12 €, an M124 but only 8 €, then that is "only" per vehicle slack 24 € "- but that makes at 200,000 525ern with 6-cylinder engine but already 4.8 million - and the piston is not the only difference where savings, if you can save. The customer would like to pay for a 116d just a cheaper price than for a 123d, even if both engines have 2 liters of displacement and are the same of the basic architecture. Therefore, the pistons for the 116d stop will be easier to produce and with less heat-resistant (and therefore cheaper) materials than the 120d would.

No manufacturer throttles the engine only electronically. It is the media and, above all, the tuner industry, who are spreading this rumor to keep the customer safe. The differences are no longer in the dimensioning, but in the material and in the production steps. The same-part strategy does NOT mean that the parts are exactly the same, but identical in dimensions and weights, but not in their thermal properties.

This concept, made possible by CAM, allows manufacturers to use a design for a variety of engine models. The engines run one behind the other from the conveyor belt. There comes a weaker and then a stronger engine and in the piston inlet are only six pieces of piston type 124 and then six pieces 148er. Of course, for the ignorant it is obvious that these are all the same parts. But unfortunately it is different. The same-part

strategy means:
- All components have the same basic production steps; Higher values ​​differ in terms of a different material and further production steps. Thus, the cylinder bore in the TOP is subsequently hardened laser - we would not do, if it were not necessary, is not made at the UL and the OL also.
- All components can be maintained with the same tools.
- When replacing in the workshop, there is no risk of confusion - there is only one piston in exchange

This is not only the car manufacturer so - eg Bosch in his machines. There are the Green Series (home improvement) and the Blue Series (professionals). Again - except the case no visible difference. One-
hand
angle grinder : - Other casting material of the housing
- Other hardening process of the gearbox
- Wire enamel of the winding of the electric motor is harder, does not break as quickly
- Switch is designed for more switching cycles
- Other cable material (thicker, does not break so quickly)
- Modified overload protection

The power control is via the electronics to prevent the engine from being overstressed with the simple components. By charging you can miss the engine almost any performance - only he does not necessarily tolerate it. So if you think that even a 118i with 170PS could do even more, only the dorks of BMW can not get out, then let the following say: a 118i is good for 300+ hp and that in full compliance with emissions - only he does not do that for long.

Basically, in the automotive industry (and not just there)
* It's not all as it seems.
* If somewhere a € uro can be saved, you will do it too.
* Especially in the field of automotive technology on the part of the media and in parts of the literature is displayed incorrectly - it is good to keep it covered, because you deserve well with it.

This statement "how long does a chipped engine" is not to hit in km, because an engine does not know the term of the km. If the M124 is operated at the performance level of a 30d, but this performance is never or rarely demanded, the predicted life expectancy does not change at all. However, if the performance is often demanded, it comes to structural changes over time. Depending on the environmental conditions and the characteristics of the request, there may be a strike after a few minutes, or only after 1,000 operating hours.

The maximum load for the piston arises in the range of the maximum torque and thus the highest medium pressure. Here, in particular, the heat transfer value of importance. In contrast to a gasoline engine, the diesel has a significantly higher heat transfer through the piston, which is then dissipated by the spray oil cooling.

Combustion in the engine produces temperatures of up to 2000 ° C - but aluminum melts at 660 ° C.
Actually, the piston would have to be liquid - but it is not, because the "hot phase" in diesel, so the combustion only 45-90 ° kw and he can rest the remaining 630-675 ° kw per power stroke. From 400 ° C aluminum loses considerable strength, so the piston operating temperature must be kept below 400 ° C. How much the piston heats up depends on the intensity of the combustion - it is highest at full load and maximum torque and is inevitably even higher due to a chip tuning. To counteract this one does the following: the copper content in the flask is increased. Copper is one of the best heat conductors and so you can give piston temperature to the engine oil faster. Second, chromium is added, allowing the piston to have higher strength at 420 ° C.
It can therefore be said that the more powerful engines use not only more pressure-resistant, but also "faster" alloys for the pistons. Unfortunately, a quick intervention in the engine control does not do that. The thermal capacity is exhausted, the piston weakened by operation in the overload range. In the worst case, it breaks through only in the fire - a capital engine damage is the result.

As far as the damage is concerned, these only occur some time after the tuning. Usually there are problems after 50,000 to 80,000 km. Many then no longer own the vehicle and the subsequent owner often knows nothing of his luck. And then, in the case of many damages, they first drive to the workshop and then just swap them out. That the cause could be in the chip, many do not come to that - the tuner has said, it does not matter.

And it is with great pleasure that the tuners (and not only those) spread that certain components are a wearing part - eg the turbocharger. He is not! Turbos are broken by chiptuning or wrong handling. Previously, when turbos were the absolute exception, everyone knew that you drive a vehicle with turbo engine after the cold start best once in idle and the first 500m rather sneaks than drives to prevent the still cold turbo with a too high Exhaust gas temperature is confronted. Is also the reason why many who have a turbo damage often not only have one.

I can understand it from the customer's point of view. Somebody comes here and builds something, which gives the engine a decent charge more power without any other action. You do not see anything, you only feel it. With the knowledge in the background, all motors are the same, one thinks, it can not matter. The tuners do the rest with their arguments - no tuner will report damage, after all it's his business.

Chiptuning is like smoking. The cigarette maker will never tell you that smoking causes lung cancer. The smokers argue that they know people who have been smoking for a lifetime and are 80 years old. Is that the proof that smoking is not unhealthy? And here too: The treatment of smoking diseases is a very big business.

All statements are probably valid for every vehicle manufacturer, I personally do not know anyone who does not drive such an identical part strategy accordingly. So caution is better than forbearance.
https://www.motor-talk.de/forum/akti...hmentId=746891
https://autodrom-magazin.de/offener-...iesel-motoren/
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Last edited by fraatti; 06-07-2019 at 02:57.
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Old 30-11-2018, 02:46   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fraatti View Post
Pointti on siis että vahvimmassa koneessa on myös vahvimmat sisukset vaikka saattaakin olla että varaosanumero on kaikissa sama...
Tulee pari kysymystä tähän liittyen mieleeni:

-Miten varaosien tilaamisen yhteydessä on sitten mahdollista hankkia alkuperäistä vastaavat osat, jos OE-varaosanumerolla ei saakaan oikeanlaista tavaraa?

-Kuinka nykyiset ja tulevat nk. modulaariset B-sarjan moottorit sopivat kyseiseen logiikkaan, jonka mukaan materiaalien vahvuuksissa on eroja riippuen moottorin tehosta?
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Old 30-11-2018, 02:51   #3
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Tuossa tekstissä vastataan molempiin kysymyksiin. Vahvin ja kallein osa käy matalempiviritteisiin kyllä varaosaksi. Sähköosien puolella täysin samat periaatteet käytössä, kuten varmasti myös kaikkien muidenkin osien.
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Old 30-11-2018, 03:11   #4
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Originally Posted by böntti View Post
Tuossa tekstissä vastataan molempiin kysymyksiin. Vahvin ja kallein osa käy matalempiviritteisiin kyllä varaosaksi. Sähköosien puolella täysin samat periaatteet käytössä, kuten varmasti myös kaikkien muidenkin osien.
Toisin sanoen varaosat valmistetaan tarkoituksella korkeimpia vaatimuksia vastaavaksi, vaikka se nostaisi varaosan hintaa eikä sitä ole materiaalien osalta lähtökohtaisesti suunniteltu käytettäväksi matalampivirireisissä moottoreissa?

Äkkisältään luulisi että erilaisten materiaalien myötä osien massat ja jotkut muutkin ominaisuudet johtaisivat siihen, että moottorista voidaan joutua uusimaan enemmän osia kuin identtisen varaosan kohdalla tapahtuisi, tai että se muuttaisi moottorin suorituskykyä? Edellä esittämäni on maallikon mutua, mutta ilmeisesti tällaisella menettelyllä on kuitenkin tarkoituksensa?
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Old 30-11-2018, 03:24   #5
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Lue tuo teksti ajatuksen kanssa uusiksi.
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Old 30-11-2018, 03:58   #6
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Varaosalogistiikka! Varastoon on järkevämpi tuottaa osia, jotka käyvät useampaan paikkaan, vaikka tuotannon yksikköhinta olisikin korkeampi. Osaluettelon osanumeroiden perusteella ei valitettavasti voi päätellä, ovatko kyseiset osat olleet samoja tehtaalta lähtiessään. Tämä sama näkyy monessa paikassa. Esim. penkin nahkoja saa varaosana vain lämmityksen kanssa, vaikka moni penkki on lähtenyt tehtaalta ilman lämmitystä. Joissakin tasonsäädön antureissa on tehtaalta vain yksi piiri ja varaosana kaikissa on kaksi piiriä, koska samoja osia voi käyttää useamassa paikassa. Näitä riittää loputtomiin.
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Old 30-11-2018, 07:47   #7
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Sama pätee mm. korinjohtosarjoissa. On vain olemassa sitä maksimi varustetason sarjaa. Karvalakkiin asennettunna niitä ylimääräisiä liittimiä vaan on sitten vähän siellä ja täällä.
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Old 30-11-2018, 10:21   #8
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Kiitos rautalangasta, arvostan pyrkimyksiänne ja tarjoamanne esimerkit muihin varaosaluokkiin, kuten johtosarjoihin, ovat tässä kontekstissa loogisia.

Tekstissä on ansiokkaasti käsitelty mäntien valmistukseen liittyviä vaatimuksia moottorin vaatimuksiin ja suorituskykyyn liittyen. Ymmärrän kuvatun menettelyn varaosavalmistuksen ja -logistiikan kannalta, mutta en voi välttyä pohtimasta miten vaikkapa männän valmistusprosessien erot ja käytetyt materiaalit vaikuttavat käytännössä sellaisessa moottorissa, jossa vaikkapa yksi kaksi mäntää on korvattu korkeamman suorituskyvyn omaavilla? Hiuksia halkoen ajatellen vaikkapa varaosina korvattujen mäntien erilainen liikekitka ja lämmönsiirtokyky vaikuttavat siihen, että lämpötilaerot kasvavat aiemmasta ja edelleen esim. lämmönsiirtokerroin kasvaa sylinterien välillä. Toleranssit lienevät matalaviritteisemmissä moottoreissa korkeammat, joten tällä ei liene välitöntä käytännön merkitystä, mutta entäpä vaikka 100 tkm jälkeen? Tämä oli oikeastaan alkuperäinen ääneen ajatteluni innoittaja.
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Old 08-12-2018, 01:14   #9
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Mielenkiintoista tekstiä...

Quote:
Originally Posted by zakspeed View Post
Sama pätee mm. korinjohtosarjoissa. On vain olemassa sitä maksimi varustetason sarjaa. Karvalakkiin asennettunna niitä ylimääräisiä liittimiä vaan on sitten vähän siellä ja täällä.
Tämä ei kyllä Bemarin kohdalla paikkaansa. Siis tehtaalla asennetussa johtosarjassa ei nykyään ole kyllä juurikaan ylimääräisiä karvoja tai turhia liittimiä...
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Old 08-12-2018, 01:20   #10
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Quote:
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Hiuksia halkoen ajatellen vaikkapa varaosina korvattujen mäntien erilainen liikekitka ja lämmönsiirtokyky vaikuttavat siihen, että lämpötilaerot kasvavat aiemmasta ja edelleen esim. lämmönsiirtokerroin kasvaa sylinterien välillä. Toleranssit lienevät matalaviritteisemmissä moottoreissa korkeammat, joten tällä ei liene välitöntä käytännön merkitystä, mutta entäpä vaikka 100 tkm jälkeen? Tämä oli oikeastaan alkuperäinen ääneen ajatteluni innoittaja.
Heräsi minullakin samanlainen ajatus... Esim. onko mäntien painossa eroa,
ja myyvätkö edes pelkästään yhtä mäntää vai tuleeko ne aina sarjana?
Jos männät on yhtä painavia niin en itse näe kyllä ongelmaa jos niiden rakenteellinen koostumis on hieman eri eipä ne sylinteritkään tuppaa
autossa ihan tasaisesti kulumaan...


Sivukommenttina että 6-pyttyisen bemarin dieselistä yleensä hajoaa 5 pytyn kiertokangen laakerit ensimmäisenä jostain kymman syystä. Siis jos joku laakeri hajoaa niin usemmiten 5:n...
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